Aside from writing under a pseudonym, my life is an open book. For my friends and loved ones, there isn’t a question I’m unwilling to answer. Especially once you’ve crossed the threshold of hearing my past with same-sex attraction (SSA).
At that point, what else can I tell you that is more secretive and vulnerable?
People have definitely made use of my openness. My friend Carver asks me questions non-stop about SSA stuff, the LGBT community, and sexual, gender identity issues.
My wife, Lisa, knows I’ll share my opinion — when asked — on any matter in our lives.
Even my church has learned that I’ll give honest answers to whatever questions they have.
There is a question, though, that has never been asked. And I wonder if it’s even crossed anyone’s mind.
Perhaps I have given no reason to ask it. Or maybe it’s obvious that they know the answer — it’s plain as day!
No one asks me if I am still attracted to men.
I only bring this up because this is actually a legitimate question. I am a married man with a beautiful wife and an amazing daughter.
People who know me without my story don’t question my attractions. Why would they?
But people who do know me, who do know my past — do they still question my attractions?
Honestly, I kind of want people to ask me if I’m still attracted to men.
I don’t want people to assume. Assuming either way presents potentially false ideas about sexuality.
Let’s say you assume that since I’m married to a woman, I am no longer attracted to men. This means you’d believe sexual attractions can change. Or you’d believe that I was never really attracted to guys in the first place.
Believing the former can make people believe everyone can “change.” Believing the latter denies real attractions and authentic psychological desires.
Both beliefs are flawed.
Or what if you assume that, though I’m married to a woman, I am still attracted to men? You may believe, then, that I am denying who I really am. Or perhaps you’d believe I’m using my wife as a “beard.”
The first belief is classifying attractions too simply down to physical desires. The second belief is insulting to my and Lisa’s character.
I don’t want to be unfair and say these are the only possible explanations for people not asking about my current attractions. It’s more likely that most people simply don’t think to ask.
No assumptions. No wrong beliefs. Not even ignorance.
Simply not thinking to ask.
Truth be told, only one person needs the answer, and Lisa and I share everything with each other. She doesn’t have to ask this question, because she knows.
I’m willing to answer others who ask. I will just wait until they do.
If you’re a man attracted to men, have you seen your attractions shift or change over time? Would you say it’s possible to change your attractions permanently? Have you ever assumed someone else’s attractions or felt someone assuming something of you?
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Ok, Dean, so I’m going to ask. Are you still attracted to other men?
I think there is another reason why some do not ask. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, they do not feel it is important to ask that question. If you are redeemed, you are not defined by your attractions or temptations. Perhaps, to them, the issue is moot, because, whatever you’re attractions may be, you are honoring Christ by subjecting them to His word and to the Holy Spirit.
What matters in Christ is a new creation.
Perhaps that is why. And if it is, it is a valid reason.
Or, maybe some do not because they do not want your focus to be on “the struggle”. Also a valid reason.
I think it is the grand testament to the love and acceptance of your friends that they do not ask. Although I understand that this can come across as maybe them being distant on the issue or a little afraid. In reality, they accept you as you are. Would knowing your current attraction status change things with them? Doesn’t sound like it.
But, if you really wish they would ask, do the thing that friends do, and confide this to them.
I think the reason why he is not asked is because it make straights uncomfortable. I occasionally get asked about my past, offers to ‘cure’ me, whether or not I was a sodomite or pedophile, but no one asks if I am still attracted to men. I have to mentioned that I am not ‘cured’. When they do hear that, most look away or give me that wistful look of ‘oh you poor thing’. Few will talk about it with me; they move on to a discussion about the next prayer breakfast or did I hear so-and-so is getting married – oops, then they apologize for mentioning that. I not some fragile thing that is going to get my feelings hurt if they say the wrong thing. The only way people learn is by asking question (and not if I am sodomite). But alas, ignorance is bliss.
Most straight Christians are SUPER uncomfortable with this subject on almost any level. I should say “traditional, evangelical” Christians. They look at me and my husband and assume that he is “cured/delivered/whatever”, and when he does talk about his own story and tries to explain the attraction thing, you can see them start to squirm. Bradley, he’s gotten some of the same responses that you mentioned, such as pitying looks and a “how-to” list for deliverance…makes me shake my head.
Oh how I wish straight Christians could have compassion and not recoil in horror. They have compassion for drug addicts, alcoholism, ad nauseum, but not this. I’ve found ONE straight Christian who told me, “We’re friends forever, regardless,” but still holds me to a high standard.
Yes, Kirk- most definitely. I don’t really do anything with those attractions, but I am still, in general, attracted to men. But it’s the same of any other guy, gay or straight- marriage doesn’t prevent you from being attracted to other people.
You bring up a great point- not everyone feels that it is important. Honestly, I am with them at times. At the end of the day, my closest friends don’t see me any differently. As Andy and I discussed in the podcast, our sexualities don’t adjust our friendship in any way- we’re still best friends, we just happen to have different sexualities.
And I’ve thought about confiding in them about this- probably will happen at some point with Carver. He asks enough questions as it is.
Thank you for your thoughts and for reading!
I am attracted to men. I accepted this reality years ago. It is how I came to the Lord. But I still get questions about it. One guy at church insists that if I am still attracted to men, then I can not possibly be saved. The other day a guy said he was putting together a prayer team, to cure me (I prayed for years for this to happen); I just dismissed him. My favorites are the people who tell me that I have a demon inside me for every person I slept with, and have to renounce each and every one by name to get rid of them. Yeah right; I had a stroke with complete memory loss. While about 99% of my memory has returned, I know of at least people I slept with that I didn’t even know their names. The rest are somewhere in the black hole that is my mind. EVERYBODY it seems is out to ‘cure’ me. Problem is I am not sick. I just look at guys.
A few weeks ago, I was at a restaurant. We had a cute waitress, and I looked at her butt, something I hadn’t done since I was a teenager (those Chick Tracts said I was going to hell for doing so; this is another reason I went into guys). I didn’t look at her with lust, just admired the curvature of her form. A friend of mine (who knows of my SSA) asked what I was doing and I had switched sides. I just laughed. I told him that my attractions had not changed, but may have expanded.
The point is that we can not change ourselves; but if we let God be God, sometimes He will surprise us, even me.
Bradley, would you mind if I beat up the guys at your church? I know they mean well, but…
In all seriousness, I am sorry you have people trying to change you rather than journeying with you and listening to your story. Like you said, we are unable to change ourselves. All we can do is pursue Christ and pray that God draws us closer to Him, no matter what. Whatever our attractions may be or however they may develop is inconsequential to Christ working in our lives. I pray your church community can come to understanding that with you.
LOL!
Seriously, I just want them to accept me as me, not who they want me to be. Isn’t it enough that I gave up the gay lifestyle? Okay so I don’t grunt and zone out on football; so I am a better cook than most women (including my wife). It doesn’t make me less of a man. A real man loves God with all his heart, and doesn’t try to impress Him by throwing a football.
That’s what took me down the SSA path–I was HORRIBLE at throwing a ball, and subsequently, immediately labeled as non-man. Amazing, years later, it still panics me if ever asked to join in. Every real man can throw a ball, but what if your body just refuses to understand the directions sent from the brain? It wasn’t till my 40’s that a pastor said, “God’s definition of a man isn’t his sports talent–it’s his heart.”
Amen!
Yes…though I’ve only admitted ssa for a short while…No and Yes. Great article. Are you still attracted to men?
Thank you, Robert- and thank you for reading! I’m proud of you for taking the step in admitting your attractions. That’s not an easy step to take, but it’s one that’s needed in order to begin understanding how your beliefs and sexuality come together. I pray you join us along your journey and that we can bless you with our stories here at YOB.
Oh, and to answer your question, yes. Thank you for asking! 🙂
Good thoughts Dean. I’d say for me, it’s uncommon for anyone (who already knows about it) to mention anything about my ssa. I tend to bring it up often for them though! I don’t really want people to assume all is suddenly amazing and peachy. I’m quite needy, and I still need their prayer and support. I try to give them a lot of grace though. I mean I guess I don’t often ask them if they’re still attracted to the opposite sex! I’m sure that would be a great conversation starter though. 😀
I don’t think I would ever describe you as needy, C. To think of yourself that way diminishes the warranted desires and necessities of your life. I am glad you have support around you though- I pray you continue to strengthen that through great conversations, however they start. 🙂
true
I have been asked plenty of times if I am still attracted to men, but mostly by other SSA men. I get the sense that they’re looking for hope that their attractions may someday change, too, if I can attest that my attractions have changed. OSA people have not asked me about my current attractions very much. I think the reason for that most of the time is that it doesn’t really matter to them. They know that I’m married and committed to my wife, that I’m not sleeping around with men, that I am very vocal about sexual purity and related issues, so I assume that those are the things that really matter to them the most. Whatever feelings or attractions I have inside me are my own private business to be reckoned between me and God. I am willing to talk about them, of course, but maybe other people want to respect my privacy in that regard and not overstep any bounds unless I take the initiative to open up to them first.
The boundaries point is one that I always consider- most people just don’t feel like they should cross into that question with anyone in general. And that’s a good thing! Sexuality is a personal matter and shouldn’t be carelessly conversed without a trusted relationship. I guess it’s the understanding of how to avoid stepping over boundaries while approaching such a sensitive topic that is difficult. Thank you for your thoughts, Kevin!
Interesting that some people still seem so focused on change in this day and age, or even mixed orientation marriages for that matter, when neither of these things by themselves make you righteous or holy. The focus, as other people here have mentioned, can get put on the wrong thing. It becomes about them, the individual, and what they want, not what God wants. Marriage is not the answer for everyone, in fact, it will likely not be the answer for the majority of gay Christians who adhere to a traditional sexual ethic – marriage can sometimes become a stumbling block in your journey, even as it can sometimes help with it. As a gay celibate Christian on the cusp of adopting a child and becoming a father, it has been heartening to read some of these stories.
I just know that if I were married (to a woman, of course), I’d feel kind of invalidated if someone just assumed I was bisexual or no longer gay.
“Am I still attracted to men?” Is a question I ask myself often. Most of the time it’s with the intent of seeing if I’m like other people who have experienced a change. That brought me to a stupor of thought, a dead end in my happiness.
It was like coming home again when I once again acknowledged that yes, I am a gay man, spiritually, emotionally and physically attracted to men living in a heterosexual world (and I don’t say heteronormative because I feel like I understand God’s pattern for families and that it’s more than just a tradition). It’s easier for me to just accept that than try and be someone else or analyze my feelings to see if I’m “improving.” Perhaps God needs some of us, whether married or not, to use our gayness/SSA for His purposes, to love and serve others in unique, Christlike, intimate ways.
I like your perspective, OGM. It reminds me a lot of Greg Coles from his book “Single, Gay, Christian.” It’s one I’ve been working through myself- understanding my sexuality as a way to glorify God rather than something to “cure” or “fix”. I pray you continue to grow closer to God through this part of your journey.
Dean, this was such a great post, and it really spoke to me, as my husband and I are on a similar journey as you and your wife, and we have been having conversations on this topic as well. I would love it if my husband and I could have a conversation with the two of you sometime. I follow YOB because it helps me see that there are others out there like us, and most straight, evangelical Christians don’t get it. Not even a little bit. Your posts encourage me. Please keep writing!
Thank you for reading, Terri! I am so glad you and your husband both are able to be blessed by our stories. Lisa and I have had to work very hard to be able to have these conversations, and they didn’t start off easily. We both got hurt at different times, crossed boundaries, said things we regretted, and humbly apologized for where we each had gone wrong. We aren’t always perfect either- but we love each other and strive to keep that upfront always. I pray you and your husband have the chance to dive into deeper topics with each other and grow as one more and more every day.
Thanks Dean! Other than YOB, we have felt very alone in our journey as a couple. We have begun diving into the deeper topics and could really benefit from other couples who are journeying this out as well. We have always been intentional about allowing the honest conversations to happen. We purposed from the beginning to always be open with one another and to give one another grace when difficult conversations needed to happen. We truly would love to be able to talk with some other couples who may be a little further along on this journey. Could use some wisdom and encouragement… 🙂
Being that I am attracted to both men and women and actually married to a man, I’m pretty sure everyone assumes I’m straight – especially since I’m actually out to so few people. And even the people I am out to either hope that I am now completely straight or simply assume that I am. I don’t know how I feel about it honestly – it’s on me that I don’t bring it up and am not very open about it so assuming I’m straight is not is not that far fetched with the amount of information provided. On the other hand, the people that do know and just hope against hope that it will miraculously happen kinda stings, being that they know how faithful I am to God and my spouse.
I can say this – I’m not a 50/50 bisexual as Eliel Cruz puts it. My attractions to men and women are slightly different as are the feelings that arise with those attractions. When I was younger I was in denial and didn’t quite understand my attractions beyond being obviously physically attracted to someone and I never thought twice about the deep feelings women evoked in me. (I always find it interesting how the guys talk about how at 12 or so they noticed a guy physically and automatically figured something was different – I just figured everyone was like me lol. but that’s a whole other story that goes more along the lines of my bisexual attraction). Anyway, when I was a teenager I was never “boy crazy” but I definitely leaned more towards being attracted to guys and noticed them more often than I noticed girls and as I got into my 20’s and became more aware of my attractions the scale began to tilt in the other direction. Oddly enough, around the time I got engaged to get married lol.
Could it have always been this way and I just had no way to grasp it – very possible, but I’ll never know I guess.
Ashley, you bring up a great topic with bisexuality. I know that the bisexual community is especially marginalized with presuppositions about their sexuality based on their current relationships. Your perspective is valuable and I greatly appreciate your sharing it!
As a married man, I found this an interesting post and your understanding of the ways people understand or (mis)understand the possible answers to the “unasked” question about your sexual attraction.
I think this post should encourage some healthy discussion.
Me? Ha ha! You write: If you’re a man attracted to men, have you seen your attractions shift or change over time? Would you say it’s possible to change your attractions permanently?
Here is my answer: I make no claims that my experience is universal or typical for men with SSA. 5 years ago, as a SSA man in a MOM (mixed orientation marriage), I would say have said that my sexual attraction was primarily homosexual with incidental heterosexual attraction.
Today, after 5 years of working on various life issues related to my history and my same-sex attractions, I can tell you that I feel entirely heterosexual. I cannot remember the last time that I felt any same-sex attractions or had any SSA thoughts. I know other men with SSA who have not experienced change in their sexual attractions, so I know that my experience is not universal for all men with SSA. Can I say absolutely that this change is permanent? Ask me again in 5 years. Ha ha!
Alan, I am thankful you have been able to grow and develop your attractions in a personal way. And I appreciate that you understand yours is a story not necessarily universal. Attractions can shift- but not always. Often men, like you, who have seen a shift in attractions assume it’s the same for everyone. I rejoice that you have found peace in your attractions and have been able to grow with them to a satisfying place! And I pray that you always keep Christ as your foundation, instead of any new found attractions or sexuality. Thank you for sharing your story- any story of victory is a blessing to hear!
Alan, I have enjoyed your posts, especially since we are about the same age and we have had successful, fulfilling marriages. I hope and pray I can get to where you are. I do want to feel totally heterosexual. My wife keeps telling me, “Quit confessing that you are a Christian man with SSA, instead confess you are a heterosexual”. She tells me, “After all, I have seen you in bed”. LOL. Please pray for me-I believe in the God of the impossible and I know He can heal my brain. He has evidently done that for you, and you give me hope!
Michael, thank you for your reply. Our goal should be purity and holiness, not heterosexuality.* There are plenty of heterosexual men who are immoral or struggling with lust. Working on my past traumas related to wounds to masculinity and men was the key to my accepting myself as a man and working to connect to men in healthy community was instrumental in my peace and confidence that I am truly a man and belong in the world of men.
*See Christopher Yuan’s new book: Holy Sexuality And The Gospel at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0735290911/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0
As my sense of healthy masculinity grew, my same-sex attraction decreased. Men were no longer the “mysterious other” and it freed me up to see my wife as “the mysterious other” that compliments my masculinity.
You may or not ever be completely free of SSA, but that shouldn’t be your goal. If it happens, great! If it doesn’t happen, great! If you are not in a place where you feel authenticity heterosexual in your attractions, it would be dishonest and out of integrity to say you are. Pressure from your wife isn’t helpful. Acceptance of you as you are is much better! I hope she will understand that. Feel free to share this reply with her.
Continue to heal, walk with God and to love your wife with all the strength. You are in a fine place. God bless you, friend! ALAN
Thank you Alan! I agree completely that our ultimate and final goal should be purity and holiness, not necessarily heterosexuality, but I do believe God created me to be heterocentric (is that a word?). I don’t have a clue how it got off-track in me to begin with, but I know who egged it along—it was my stream of choices!
I re-read my response to you and I made it sound like my wife is putting “pressure” on me, far from the truth. Her labeling me a “heterosexual” is done by her “tongue-in-cheek”. Basically, when we are in bed together she kids me that I act nothing like those other descriptions. Actually boosts my somewhat fragile male ego!
I do resonate with your saying that your wife now is the “mysterious other” (she is), and your SSA has decreased significantly. Mine has too, but the thing that keeps hitting me in public is noticing my attraction to young, good looking, men. It is the same thing that a heterosexual Christian man deals with everyday when he sees a pretty woman, I believe. Just a matter of a split second of arresting and controlling that thought. I know it’s “pie-in-the -sky” that I want that all to go away completely (although you know God can do that if He wants to), but even as I mature even more, my public eye will most likely never notice the beautiful woman first walking with the handsome man. Not going to happen, I know that, and I’m ok—especially because my best friend is going to say something before I do—“Did you see that? Are you ok?”. She’s helping me. And, yes, I love her with all my strength—she is absolutely amazing!
I will read Christopher Yaun’s new book-I’ve read his other one. Thanks! Your insights have been helpful to me! Mike
Hey Mike! Good answers and I agree with you. Every man regardless of his attractions must learn to control his sexuality and respond in ways that respect all people. We will never be free of temptation until we meet our Lord face to face, but we can say no to lust every moment of every day. That last fruit of the Spirit (self-control) may be really difficult when it comes to our sexuality, but nevertheless it is God working in us to bring about His godliness including sexual purity.
Never say never. All things are possible with God. One quote I like is this: “God won’t protect you from something He can perfect you through.” ~Paul David Tripp, The Art of Marriage
So, if our eyes continue to scan the horizon for attractive men more than attractive women, trust God to work in your sanctification. I play a game with myself if I notice a handsome man. I set out to scan the surroundings for two beautiful women. I’m picky in what I like, so usually this takes a while. Then I find I have spent longer looking at women than men. I don’t sexualize either men or women when I see them. This is not an exercise in Lust 101. I just appreciate their beauty and thank God for His creation.
Hi,
I am walking away from this very confused. I was intrigued by the title, and really thought this would go somewhere but I’m not sure what happened. I myself am married to a woman, and i agree that no one asks if I am still attracted to men, but I also find no shame in admitting that I am. The journey through our SSA doesnt mean getting married says anything about it, other then someone who gets married is obviously ALSO attracted to women, doesnt mean it says ANYTHING about his SSA. So while there are many questions and statements the author brings out here, not sure if it brings any more clarity forth to someone who was looking for some. That my own two cents. But I am happy the topic was broached
.
I’m not sure Dean really meant to clarify. A lot of times, these posts address personal musings, not clarifications. They get people talking. And sometimes the clarification comes in the ensuing conversation. Sometimes it doesn’t.
My question is, is there something specific along this line that you want us to discuss? Or are their insights you can offer? I am very interested. I think we all want to be a help to one another.
Hmmm, I am new here so I did not realize that was the point. I understand the musings. I myself would have answered the question, but I get the point was like you say only If people are asking the questions.
I do not have any specific things I am looking for to be discussed, I actually work with men and answer these questions with them as a life coach, so I just thought this was going to answer those questions for those men.
If I feel a place to add insight I shall not hesitate to add it. Thanks for extending he invitation 😉
Hey, R.W.! Kirk was correct that this was more of a musing than a direct answering. The title is a rhetorical question really- honestly, prior to writing the post, it’s a question I hadn’t much considered necessary in asking. I think in my writing out this post, I came to work through my own musing more. That often happens for me.
My ultimate desire was to stir up thoughts and questions in the minds of others- which, as you pointed out, this post does leave more questions than answers in the mind of the reader. So success, I guess! 🙂 Thank you for reading and I look forward to your adding more of your own thoughts in our posts.
I am curious about something here, and it’s more or less theological in nature. Most of us here are probably aware of “ex-gays,” and that homosexuality is indeed a salvation issue. I’m wondering that if someone’s desires/attractions don’t change, does it mean they aren’t truly saved/born again? I know mortifying the flesh is important and that most of us (ie, males) here agree that lust/concupiscience (sp?) plays a large part in SSA. Lol, not exactly sure what my question is, but I’m wondering how this all fits in with the Holy Spirit cleansing us from within, God’s reprobation vs God redeeming other “former” sinners…Sometimes I think I overthink things!
Well, first, I would counter that sexuality has nothing to do with salvation. You can be saved and not be straight. When one is saved, he does not immediately lose all ability to be tempted. Jesus was tempted- are you saying He was sinful?
In the Scriptures, you will find many references to sanctification- pu Ting away our former fleshly desires and pursuing Christ. But you will not find anywhere that says temptation is a sign of lack of salvation or a weak faith.
So, if temptation is just a part of life, then how does my temptation to lust after men negate my salvation? As well, if my mere attraction to other men is not giving into temptation and is instead a part of my life, how could that signify a lack of salvation? Straight men stay attracted to women their whole lives- no one doubts their standings with Christ. So why doubt mine? If I stay faithful to my wife and love her as Christ commands, how am I doing anything that is not a sign of Christ’s sanctification working in my life?
I would challenge you to go back to the Bible and look at what is ACTUALLY said about sanctification and not what is often interpretated by well meaning though somewhat short sighted pastors. No one considers sexuality and sanctification it seems- but if you wr style with SSA or identify as gay, then you know all too well that it is a deeper issue than a simple whip of a cliche.
Dean, thank you! I think you hit the nail on the head by putting SSA in its proper context: temptation. When we come to understand it thus, then we can scripturally deal with it. Our expectations can then be reasonable. Takes a load off a fellow when he realizes, wait a second, am I expecting to never go through life without temptation? Of course not! But God has promised me grace and victory, and that’s what I should be looking for.
I took a risk at making it all sound so simple and easy, I know. God bless you, brother!
No, brother. Salvation is not the absence of temptation. It gives victory over it.
I am sad for all my brothers who have been made to feel that their peculiar temptations are a symptom of an inward malady. They are a symptom that you are human and live in a fallen world.
The good news of the gospel is that Jesus came to forgive committed sins and cleanse the heart to enable us to live righteously. I like that!
Paul says that no temptation has come to us that is not common to man. So, your temptations are really not that wierd after all! But God is faithful to provide a way of escape, so that we do not have to be overcome by the temptation. I like that, too!
Amen, guys. 🙂
I go to a non-denominational church and we’re taught that there needs to be a real change in our attractions for whatever we’re facing. If we find ourselves over time continuing to give into our temptations, then we have to ask if we’ve been changed in our heart at all. Question I ask myself is if all I’m learning is to hate my desires and never overcome them, am I really a Christian? And by overcoming I don’t mean not having sex or looking at porn only, but also the desire for it. Sometimes I think it’s enough not doing those things, but then realize that that doesn’t have to do with having a pure heart at all. And if I’m being honest, not doing things is small comfort when I still want to. I’m probably overthinking it too, or overfeeling it may be more like it, but living with ssa and failing in still being attracted to men is tough to live with because it’s like I’m failing Jesus too. I know that’s not the right way to say it and it may not fit with the blog, so no offense meant to anyone.
Justin, what are your thoughts on Romans 7 then? Paul talks about the fight he faces in his own life to overcome his flesh. Was Paul failing Jesus? Or what about when Paul reveals he has a thorn in his flesh that he cannot overcome? The response of God isn’t “You should be over this by now,” but instead is “My Grace is sufficient for you.” If this is the case, then clearly expecting to have all mere desires of the flesh gone is clearly in error.
What does this mean then? Well, for me, it means that desires of the flesh are a part of life. And clearly not all desires are wrong- there’s a Psalm that says, “Trust in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.” If the heart represents the desires of the person, including the flesh, then not all desires are bad since we are told we will receive them if we trust in the Lord. Trusting in Him puts our desires in check though. So if you live trusting in Christ and still desire male intimacy, then you need to begin looking at what intimacy is available while still allowing you to honor Christ in your walk with Him.
This discussion could go much further- but my point is this: desires are not inherently sinful. My attractions are not inherently sinful. The fact that I am still attracted to men is not a sin. Lust is. Mere attraction is not.
Dean, this is a fight isn’t it? The takeaway of Romans 7 for me is that at the end of the chapter he never says that either the flesh is gone in this life or the sin that dwells within, only that there’s no condemnation when we’re in Christ. And not all desires are bad, if so desiring God would be a sin. But all desires of the flesh are bad aren’t they? I’m thinking of 1 John 2 talking about the desires of the flesh and the eyes and the pride of life all being what’s from in the world not from God. There’s also that verse that seems to talk about our identity, those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. I used to take that as doctrine, that if we’re in Christ the passions and desires of our flesh are crucified. It’s written past tense, that it’s true about those in Christ. But on this journey it’s the reality I’m looking for, and if I ask that verse as a measure of things: if the desires of my flesh are still passionate, do I belong to Christ? I find myself failing that question.
For the longest time I believed that as long as I didn’t act on my ss attractions that it was enough, that the attractions in themselves aren’t sinful. Attraction isn’t lust even tho sometimes the line between the two seems really small and, apart from living by faith, gets crossed without notice. The weight of same sex attraction for me isn’t that the attraction is sinning but that it’s immoral. If you’re a straight guy, your attraction for a woman can be holy and pure and beautiful and as God intended, and your marriage reflects the love of Christ for his church. Every reason that I can give and agree with for why marriage should only be between one man and one woman is a nail in my conscience of why same sex attraction is immoral and unholy. Married guys who look beyond their marriage may be in the same struggle as same sex guys, but at the heart of things opposite sex attraction seems miles removed morally from same sex attraction. Bible says sexual sin is against the body and not just the soul, for me battling same sex attractions has that added sense of being different than the fight against pride or greed, but maybe that’s just on me.
So for me, I’m left with immoral attractions that I don’t act on cause of faith that God gives. Is that grace? For sure, I’m really really thankful for grace from God. But at the end of the Bible, it says there’s a place in hell for the sexually immoral along with the cowardly, faithless, liars and others and that sure looks like a measure of character, of who you are. If we’re given grace on this journey to be transformed in this life to be more like Jesus in character, even if not perfectly, what does it say when my heart is all in with my immoral attractions? My answer has been to confess and find cleansing and keep going on with God. It still is. Who knows, maybe I’m letting the weight and accusations within of having to deal with SSA get to me. When I step back, the point of all of it, the ssa with its struggles and failures along with everything else we face, seems to be that we simply learn by faith to endure patiently everything thrown our way in this world and go on, trusting God.
Dean, I had left a really long reply to you, before I left the one to KirkD above, and it had posted here at least for awhile. I’m not sure why it was deleted. I don’t think it was offensive in any way even though it questioned something you wrote. At least it wasn’t meant to offend, it was meant as feedback. I’m new here, maybe it was outside of some acceptable theological boundary or how things are viewed at this blog. It’s really hard to talk about this at my church but I thought it would be ok here. In any case I apologize to you or whoever felt it necessary to remove it.
Dean, this is a fight isn’t it? The takeaway of Romans 7 for me is that at the end of the chapter he never says that either the flesh is gone in this life or the sin that dwells within, only that there’s no condemnation when we’re in Christ. And not all desires are bad, if so desiring God would be a sin. But all desires of the flesh are bad aren’t they? I’m thinking of 1 John 2 talking about the desires of the flesh and the eyes and the pride of life all being what’s from in the world not from God. There’s also that verse that seems to talk about our identity, those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. I used to take that as doctrine, that if we’re in Christ the passions and desires of our flesh are crucified. It’s written past tense, that it’s true about those in Christ. But on this journey it’s the reality I’m looking for, and if I ask that verse as a measure of things: if the desires of my flesh are still passionate, do I belong to Christ? I find myself failing that question.
For the longest time I believed that as long as I didn’t act on my ss attractions that it was enough, that the attractions in themselves aren’t sinful. Attraction isn’t lust even tho sometimes the line between the two seems really small and, apart from living by faith, gets crossed without notice. The weight of same sex attraction for me isn’t that the attraction is sinning but that it’s immoral. If you’re a straight guy, your attraction for a woman can be holy and pure and beautiful and as God intended, and your marriage reflects the love of Christ for his church. Every reason that I can give and agree with for why marriage should only be between one man and one woman is a nail in my conscience of why same sex attraction is immoral and unholy. Married guys who look beyond their marriage may be in the same struggle as same sex guys, but at the heart of things opposite sex attraction seems miles removed morally from same sex attraction. Bible says sexual sin is against the body and not just the soul, for me battling same sex attractions has that added sense of being different than the fight against pride or greed, but maybe that’s just on me.
So for me, I’m left with immoral attractions that I don’t act on cause of faith that God gives. Is that grace? For sure, I’m really really thankful for grace from God. But at the end of the Bible, it says there’s a place in hell for the sexually immoral along with the cowardly, faithless, liars and others and that sure looks like a measure of character, of who you are. If we’re given grace on this journey to be transformed in this life to be more like Jesus in character, even if not perfectly, what does it say when my heart is all in with my immoral attractions? My answer has been to confess and find cleansing and keep going on with God. It still is. Who knows, maybe I’m letting the weight and accusations within of having to deal with SSA get to me. When I step back, the point of all of it, the ssa with its struggles and failures along with everything else we face, seems to be that we simply learn by faith to endure patiently everything thrown our way in this world and go on, trusting God.
(I had left this comment last nite right before leaving KirkD’s and it had posted but then got flagged by Disqus as spam and pulled. I’m new on Disqus so don’t know why. Anyway, it’s still on my Disqus feed so I’m reposting it)
I give up. I left a reply last night before KirkD’s above and not sure why but it got flagged as spam and pulled. So I copied it off the feed and tried again but still get a “Detected as Spam.” I have no idea why. Anyway, if interested just check out my Disqus feed, it’s the top one.
Oh, ugh, Justin. I feel for you. I thought I was making some things clear, but apparently I only succeeded in muddying the waters. Sorry, my friend. I probably do better talking with someone in person than commenting. So hard to distill all my thoughts on this matter without writing paragraphs and paragraphs.
I guess the point about Christ being tempted in all points lije us is just to underscore the fact that there is nothing we are tempted with that He isn’t personally familiar with. And because this is true, He is able to help us. This is why we come boldly before the throne of grace to find help in time of need. Whether or not this means he was tempted with homosexual sin, I will not part comany with anyone over. The larger point is he knows what it is like to be human, experienced temptation, overcame it, and can keep us in victory over our own. That is comforting to me.
Again, I’m probably doing a lousy job expressing myself. I feel your pain, brother. Don’t give up.
Hey KirkD, don’t sweat it brother. I don’t know what the word is for being tongue tied when you’re typing on the computer, but I’m there most of the time. Besides, it may not be on you, it takes two to communicate. Your point’s good. I’ve never thought that Jesus couldn’t relate to our struggle. Enjoy Christmas Kirk D!
How are you failing? Just because you are tempted? Brother, some of this is just learning to disassociate wrong sexual expectations from normal attractions. That is a process. Not necessarily easy, but we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.
Does this mean we will never have a temptation along this line? No. We fight a real devil, and he knows our weaknesses. Does it mean we have to give in? No. We serve a risen Savior who promises grace to help in time of need.
But maybe this can help put things in perspective. What I am faced with are temptations. Even Jesus was tempted in ALL points like as we are. Whoa, consider that. And let it comfort you. Did this make Jesus gay? A failure? No, but it did make Him a wonderful Savior who understands us better than we do our ownselves.
Amen KirkD to Jesus understands us better than we do ourselves. The further I get on this journey, the less I seem to know. Hey, if the poor in spirit are blessed because there’s is the kingdom of heaven, then I’m there, and maybe there is such a thing as heaven on earth.
I hit up Dean’s comment 1st for no reason so I don’t want to repeat myself. You’re right that we’re faced with temptations, it’s part of being in this world. What troubles me is that my same sex attractions themselves are immoral, even if not acted on. Attraction is not lust, and being attracted isn’t sinning in itself, even though sometimes the line between the two seems really small and, apart from living by faith, gets crossed without notice. But attractions are a heart issue as well, an issue of character, of who we are. And I find myself asking if I belong to Christ if those attractions of my flesh aren’t crucified for real, in reality in me and not just as a point of doctrine.
This is in context a minor point since it is a comfort that Jesus faced temptation too and overcame it. I’m not sure if you meant to say that Jesus was tempted homosexually, but I can’t go there. I don’t see that verse meaning Jesus was tempted with every possible sin but that he was tempted in every way, in spirit, soul, heart, mind and strength as to his faithfulness and obedience and courage and love.
I should have told this to Dean too, but thanks for your feedback.
Justin, I do not attend a church at all. I’m non-denom as well. I agree, we’re to hate evil and to be able to recognize evil in our own hearts. You mentioned overcoming by “not having sex or looking at porn.” Those both are off limits to me, as is dating. I see my attractions as almost morbid curiosity, and very much a temptation, not as an immutable orientation. I’ve had 2 female partners when I was younger, the last one in 2000. Haven’t kissed a girl since. I’d always barely messed with guys, but was and am now more attracted to men, especially since I’m a new believer, since 2013. I started watching gay porn in my mid 30s, and just lost interest in around 4 years ago and never think about it these days. However, I do see it as a lust issue, so whether I’m fantasizing about guys (which I do and feel guilty!) or (not) watching porn, I still feel as though I’m still sinning. Christmas is especially tempting for me sexually, and I’m not certain why. I’ll be 41 on New Years Eve and still feel pretty young, and with these attractions, it’s just tough. I’ve never been very good at “being gay,” and all the weird sex stuff guys like us have done or are curious about doing. I feel like a moral failure, often.
I’m with you Joshua, especially that the attractions seem greater the further you go. I’ve been walking this road and trying to make sense of what it means to follow Jesus with attractions for guys. Your original comment caught me because the points you raise are ones that I have trouble finding answers or peace for. I don’t think having the attractions are sinning if you don’t act on them, but that doesn’t make the attractions moral. Are the attractions just a disconnect or deficit and not immoral, just damaged? I don’t know. But I know that if you put pics of guys in front of me right now something in my depths would be stirred that doesn’t look like belonging to Christ as I talked about in my comment to Dean below. It doesn’t even have to be porn. If that’s only flesh, what does it mean that my heart is all in? Does that mean failing at grace, if that’s possible? Everything in the Bible tells me there’s supposed to be growth and change and real transformation now and I’m left with the question, what if that’s not true in a real way within? Will I be one of those who tells Jesus someday that I did good things and kept away from doing evil, and He’ll say, I never knew you, depart from me. All these questions and doubts seem like the flip side of the ss attractions and the accusations within, both just weighing down from different directions. Anyway, I can’t help but believe in Jesus and go on, like where else would we go? That’s something that’s real that’s changed inside.
I feel like I should apologize to you Joshua, I probably haven’t encouraged you much as a new believer. All I know is keep going, Jesus is worth it. These are things that rattle around inside that I can’t talk about at church, but they’re probably not very helpful to anyone. I don’t even know if any of it makes sense to anyone else but if not, just ignore it, it’s on me for lacking clarity. That’s tough that Christmas is difficult for you dude, it’s one of those times when having a pure heart about Jesus seems right. Hopefully you can spend the day with people you love who love you. I’m not saying it just to say it, early Christmas morning I’ll pray for you brother. Merry Christmas Joshua and an early Happy Birthday!
Justin, these are all good and valid questions. I know where you are, been there. Little consolation, I know. I do want to encourage you to hold fast…it does get easier over time. And some of your questions will be answered as you go along. At least, mine have been. I’m with you, brother. Praying for you today.
You’re being kind Kirk. It always feels like I’m not asking the right questions, or helpful ones anyway. Jesus says to keep asking and we’ll be given and seeking we’ll find, to knock and a door’s opened. I haven’t been getting a lot of answers to my questions, but there’s an opened door and a way forward and that’s been enough of an answer. I’m not sure if it gets easier over time, it always seems that things go deeper. Only thing I know to do is to keep going, trusting God will give the answers I need. Thanks for the prayer and the encouragement.
True. As we go a long, our questions can become deeper. I relate to a lot of what you say. I still don’t understand everything, brother, but I’m at peace with the understanding I do have.
When I was younger, I was so tormented in my mind. I almost had a nervous breakdown as a teenager. Seriously. And while the pastor I then had was kind, he couldn’t really help me. I was a mess. It was difficult to know how to even go on. One foot in front of the other. I clung to Jesus with everything I had.
Flash forward to my late thirties and wham! Major depression. Everything was dark. I thought I was literally dying. Thank God I have some very godly friends and a pastor that walked that road with me. Even then I didn’t understand the underlying currents of what was causing it. I did climb up out of it, but I’ve not been the same since. Coming up out of depression is like climbing a series of hills. It’s not easy, but God has certainly pulled me through. I thank Him, and I thank His people who were there for me.
Since then, it has been like one revelation to another from Him to my soul concerning all my previous struggles and confusion. Lots of tears, brother. Deep, heart-wrenching sobbing. Calls to my support group of friends. Anxiety. Heart palps. Whew! Lord, must I really go through this? But He is helping me. I feel like I am finally understanding things.
Sorry, blah, blah. Guess I’m wordy this morning. Cec Murphy just posted part of my story in two parts on his blog Men Shattering the Silence, if you want to read more.
Blessings, brother.
Thanks for the headsup on the link to your story, you’re a good writer. It’s really encouraging that a guy can go through all that and be where you are today. If I hadn’t read it, I would have never guessed you went through what you did from reading your comments. I don’t know if this is true for you, but it’s a hard thing to carry the guilt that you were responsible, that you didn’t fight back. Have you been able to get the pain, if not the memory, to go away? There’s hope in your story, but damn, I wish I hadn’t read this today.
Whoops, sorry, brother. I should have waited until after the holiday maybe.
Actually, dealing with it now brings back the memories. But it is a part of the healing process. And I do feel the pain still, probably because I had always blamed myself until recently. That said, I have a tremendously supportive group of friends. And I am able to function despite everything. Well….some days I do better than others.
There’s nothing to be sorry about, you should be glad you got to tell your story. I was unfamiliar with the site but should have picked up better on the content. I don’t know how you heal from some memories, if healing means no more pain.
I hope you have a great Christmas brother.
I don’t think that healing means no more pain. Just like having scar tissue, most of the pain resolves, but if the spot is pressed, there is mild pain or discomfort.
Walk This Road With Me
Daniel K. Eichelberger
Will you walk this road with me, brother?
It’s treacherous, dark, and forlorn.
Its twists and its turns are confusing
And filled up with briar and thorn.
God promised that He would be with me,
To comfort, to guide and attend.
Could you be His hands and feet, brother?
Will you walk with me to the end?
Will you walk this road with me, brother?
I’m footsore and weary—afraid,
And I need a strong arm and shoulder,
A place where my head may be laid.
Emotions are complex and jumbled,
I don’t make much sense, I am sure,
But with you beside me, my brother,
I know I’ll find strength to endure.
Will you walk this road with me, brother?
Despite my attempts to conceal
The tears, they come fast and unbidden,
My pain is persistent and real.
I yearn for your calm understanding,
I covet your time and your ear.
Will you listen patiently, brother,
And calmly assure when I fear?
Will you walk this road with me, brother?
I’m doing my best even now
To move on and not seem so needy,
But, truth is, I do not know how.
I trust that I am not imposing,
Or asking too much—if I do,
Accept my apologies, brother,
I wish that I didn’t have to.
Copyright 2017 by Daniel K. Eichelberger
dkirkeichelberger@gmail.com
Daniel, thanks for sharing your poem, it’s really raw and moving and honest. You must have really good friends that answered that question for you and enabled you to write that this year. It would be hard to write while you are still there. Not everything has scar tissue, and whoever said time heals all wounds was wrong. Sometimes it just lets you forget or remember less often. And as you wrote, God’s promised never to leave.
True. Time brings perspective maybe. Healing is something different. Only the Man of Sorrows can help, and it is by His stripes we are healed. But it is a process. I know that from experience.
And, yes, Justin, I have really good friends. The best, I think, anywhere. For that I am eternally grateful. I read the hurt and loneliness in so many posts here on YOB. I felt that way years ago, so I can completely understand. But I am just counting my blessings that it is not that way for me anymore. I just hope I can be as true a friend to others as I have had given to me.
It’s got to be the best thing to be able to say, it’s not that way for me anymore. You’ve got a good heart Daniel, not only that you’re thankful, but you also want to be a friend and help. God’s going to bring guys in your path who will deserve that. I hope you had a great Christmas yesterday and get to be with those friends this week.
There is redemption in my story, brother. Just remember that. It is pretty depressing stuff to read, I know.
But not everything I write is depressing. Honestly, I am finding it very therapeutic to write. The bad is the bad. It is ugly and haunting. But there is still good in my life, and I am also trying to focus on that.
You are not off the subject or the purpose of the blog. This has obviously sparked a conversation. I can’t speak for Dean, but I have a hunch he feels glad that his own musings are causing the rest of us to think and share.
Hang in, there, Justin. You or any of of the other brothers can private message me any time. Praying for all of you.
I’m heading out and saying thanks Daniel for the praying and encouragement. I found this post surfing and Joshua’s comments about being really changed mattered to me and I signed up for disqus to comment. I don’t know how to pm on disqus but wouldn’t anyway. We’re supposed to become less self-conscious following Jesus but being here, my past is beating me up. At 5 this morning, I’m jumping out of bed flipping on clothes to go deal with something but it’s just a bad dream. Jesus says the reason for following him is so we should lose our life for his sake and I didn’t understand that much but that’s got to include the past and that looks like hope.
Okay, brother. Understood. If you change your mind, I’m at dkirkeichelberger@gmail.com
In many ways I am a new beliver, though I got saved in 1991. Was apart from the church for twenty years, bitter and angry. A massive stroke in September on 2012 brought me back to Him and turned my life upside down. The Holy Spirit helped me find the true motivations behind homosexuality and the causes of my addiction to porn, and now I can fight them better.
Stroke sounds tough enough, massive stroke must have been awful. I hope you have recovered from it completely. In any case, it seems like you’re in a much better place than you were in the 90s. Merry Christmas to you Bradley.
I am sending you a link to my blog. It is the story of what happened and what I went through; how and why I came to the Lord, left and then returned. I apologize in advance for its length. It is many pages long.
https://brokenbutredeemedblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/14/introduction/
Thanks Bradley for the link. Give me a few days to read it. I read Daniel’s above on Sunday and I can’t do that again for awhile. But thanks for real for wanting to share it.
“It was to be trampled on by men that I came into this world. It was to share man’s pain that I carried my cross.” None of us are alone in this. Prayed for you brother
These comments, along with your post, has been therapeutic. My non SSA friend(s) say, “Just pray it away (my words)!” but it isn’t always so easy, when you turn your head and see a guy who’s very attractive, or that ideal masculine embodiment that I would like to emulate . Then there’s that guilt of, “Oh no! I’m turned on!” and the subsequent guilt, but wanting to be honest and say, “yeah, the SSA/homosexuality is still there!” I guess, in simpler words, it’s easier to talk to someone who struggles the same as I and can empathize. Thanks for a good post.
Thank you, friend, for reading! I’m glad this musing was able to bless you and help you. It is easy to buy into that guilt, to let it shame you. But your attractions themselves aren’t sinful- they’re simply what they are. Lust is bad, but simply being attracted to another man isn’t wrong. I’m thankful you have been able to comfort in that through this post. Continue to journey well!
I just assume that you are still attracted to guys, otherwise, why would you be writing here? Thanks for speaking your truth here. I enjoy the different take on life.
I stumbled upon this site a few days ago and it has been very encouraging to say the least. I rarely tell anybody about my SSA struggles and even doing it relatively anonymously is very very hard for me.
My strong Christian upbringing and background has made this topic even more difficult to discuss because there are so few safe places in the church unfortunately. I don’t consider myself gay/homosexual and have zero interest in physically acting that out, but my eyes do wander to men more than women so I guess that puts me more on the SSA spectrum..
It’s a very embarrassing struggle for me because I do also desire marriage and have had a couple serious girlfriends, but I think in my mind I ultimately sabatoge the relationship because of my fear that no woman will tolerate my wandering eyes or past/present sins. It’s not even that I have a really strong desire for male physical touch or hugs, although I think that would be nice, but I just really need validation from other men, that I am a man and can be vulnerable and accepted, physically and emotionally, warts and all.
I’ve also had the ongoing secret fantasies of just being non sexually naked with other men and just wanting to be a part of the guys – all things that really didn’t happen to me as a child. I had very little proper sex education and it was never discussed in a healthy manner growing up. That combined with lots of physical insecurities eventually led me to male porn and fascination with penises and masturbation, although any hard core porn still sickens me.
So yes, I am attracted to men more than women and want and need strong male friendship to normalize my desires and development. I need help starting down this path and navigating all the obstacles.
Thanks
Thank you for joining us on this journey, JW. I pray we can bless you with our stories here. You are not alone, brother.
I have been married for almost 20 years, and I can definitely say that my attraction to my wife has increased greatly in recent years. However, I am still attracted to men. Recently I have begun to question whether this attraction to men has real substance or is it a matter of habit? Am I so used to thinking of myself as SSA that I just can’t accept myself as truly straight? I’m not sure. Don’t get me wrong, I definitely still struggle, but I question why. Is it just old thought patterns that Satan takes advantage of? Nowadays when I have sexual thoughts, they generally are about my wife, not homosexual fantasies. Why then does gay porn still tempt me? Is it just because of old habits? I would be interested in knowing if anyone else feels the same way.
Malcomb, thanks for sharing. You ask a question salient to my experiences. I am hugely attracted to my wife, but I am still attracted to men. A matter of habit for me, or is this real? In my case, “Yes” and “Yes”. No, at 62 I am not truly straight. The battle is very real for me. Yes, I am fully convinced in my own heart that my attractions started at 9 and then when I reached puberty I made a very conscious and deliberate choice to masturbate to my male friends. I produced huge tracks of attraction to men in my still-forming brain. Yes, definitely habit as a young man that has continues to plague me for over 40 years. And, unfortunately, I have engaged in male porn in my past, but Covenant Eyes has protected me for 25 years. Yes, I must admit that I would love to click-in again and watch those images. But I have a fence I cannot breach, and really, what will that do for me? Nothing, just drag my mind back to Babylon. So, habit, for me is a huge factor in my brain, and, it is very real. Great questions!
I find it fascinating, and such a relief, to know that I am not the only one who has ever felt this way about the nature of attractions. It helps me to know that I am not alone, nor am I defective, just because the way I am attracted to the woman I love doesn’t happen to easily fit into any preconceived notions of what attraction to a significant other “should” be like.
For so long I worried that because I didn’t seem to experience it the way I perceived that other straight guys did (and who knows if my perceptions themselves were wrong as well) that therefore I could never be in a genuine and healthy relationship with a woman. Now I see that so much of what we see as normative attraction is in actuality quite socially constructed and influenced by the culture we grow up in. As someone brought up in the comments section of another blog post on here about SSA and marriage, marriage itself and its relationship to sexual attraction was not at all seemingly viewed or talked about or thought about in the same way for the ancients and in the Bible itself. That’s what I find fascinating, and relieving.
I realize it’s time to stop trusting in the arm of flesh and man’s wisdom, and trust in God’s design and His ways, even and especially when they are a mystery to me. This divine love is something that transcends the physical in a way I may never understand completely in this mortal sojourn.
Thanks for sharing, Dean.
Thanks, Dean, for your insight and this post. Yes, I am still attracted to men, but the attraction has shifted significantly. After almost four decades of a truly amazing and sexually fulfilling marriage to my best friend, yes, I still get pummeled in public with my public eye as a good-looking guy walks by. Do I want to touch him or have sex with him? No, not really I can’t and I couldn’t go there (well, I have to admit my flesh could go there big time if I didn’t love God and my wife so much). So, yes, I did used to go to those thoughts as a younger man, unfortunately. But not now. I look at his face and immediately look up into the eyes of Jesus and He helps me bring every thought captive. But, as I think all Christian SSA men do, I wonder if this will ever go away. How I have prayed and longed for that day! But, I’m afraid I will take this “attraction” to the grave, and that’s ok. Yes, my public eye will continue to improve—it is improving as I speak—but I am certainly under no illusion it will ever end. It is my thorn and, like Paul, I can say, “His grace is sufficient”. He is greatly helping me and He truly understands me. As a straight brother yesterday encouraged me about this very issue he looked me in the eyes and said, “It is finished”. Those words I cling to—Jesus’ redemptive work in me by His death and resurrection is done, and my quest to find answers to my issue is really not important—“It is finished”. I wish all my SSA brothers, including me, could perfectly walk in those words, but the struggle goes on.